what is wrong with ADR?

[yaro]

This topic will be held in english.
Yesterday I went with a mail to Hungerford, as Bob has times when he doesnt answer, about our tournament to check if everything is okay.
He was curious why We in Poland don't like ADRs, this is his answer:

Please ask them for their insight, that would be helpful.

The standard rules for an official Masters is that it cannot deviate from the normal rules document. According to those numbers nearly a third of the players want ADR, I do not know that I can approve a change that will potentially anger a third of the players who are playing with the rules as written.

I am interested to hear more before approving any exception for your event.

In short- qualifier is not in danger, but we might have to roll back to 2 lists with ADR.
Like I said I am asking about your insight why we don't like ADRs.
Please write in english - it would be easier for me to gather opinions and also I might just direct him here for your opinions.
Also I would like to ask moderators for help - this is not the topic where anybody vocal should write about why Warmachine sucks and so on - keep only to ADR and why you dont like to play with/against them. Please moderators keep an eye on this topic that it is on it. Also I dont want it as a heated discussion for or against - just calm and logic arguments that can be shown to creators of the game. Thank you.

Actually I have nothing against ADR.

[yaro]

me either but still on fb it gathered the least number of votes.

I think that ADR are no problem, but whenyou play with ADR you are lock on some casters. And not everybody like this, becouse they need to play caster that they dont like or don't played enough games with them.

[Shaysome]

I think that ADR are fine - with 3 list more than ever -> with 2 list you have some flexibility, with 3 you are usually forced into some hard decision making. I think ADR on this kind of tournament is good choice

ADR is just another set of rules where you can potentially skew the balance of the game. Some factions get great casters and great pairs to use while others are not that lucky. Every season some factions are very happy and some are not and not without reason. This is especially apparent in CoC and Grymik since they have so few casters to choose from. ADR also lengthens the list choosing process and causes to bring more models when you travel to a tournament.

[yaro]

guys, in Pruszkow tournament 28 to 14 people said that they dont want to have ADR, you have chance to say why is that so we can do Qualifier without them like it seems most of you want.
For now I see only one voice that shows what you don't like in them. Give me arguments why it would be better run without them that Will can see your point of view. If not we will include ADR in Krakow tournament to be in line with other Qualifiers.

I have no experiecne with ADR but I would like to avoid playing 3 list ADR FPA tournament. Necessery amount of models for this is insane

No strong statements on 2 list ADR.

I'm against ADR. There are couple of reasons (from the most important to me ):

1. practical (in case of Master in march) - 3 lists + specialists to every list is a nightmare to transport. Especially now, when most lists are in themes and some units/solos are appearng in only one theme in faction.

2. imho unclear way in which ADR casters are chosen - I understand it is (very) difficult to decide which casters are bad(?) and "earn honor" to be in ADR. Many countries, many diffrent metas and so on. But still I can see some strong casters in some factions, Ossrum in Mercs for example. It is very common caster (ETC, other tournaments), and if people are playing him, he is good caster. Why he is in ADR? There are 2 other rhulic casters, far less common.

3. private reason - I really don't like Circle of Orboros ADR

4. small factions (Grymkin and CoC) - Yes, they are small factions. Yes they got fewer options. But I'm guessing they were designed to have fewer options. In ADR format they are gaining far more than other factions.

That's why I'm against ADR format. But if TO decided to change format and allow ADR, I would be still coming.

@Yaro - you know it's busy time before christmas give people time to write it. To write at lest "mediocore" quality post I need to spend some time

In general with ADR, I remember that at the beginning the idea was to convince people to use less popular options by giving them extra flexibility with points. Which is ok, nothing bad with it. Problem is the fact that some factions get "less popular choices" the other one - not so much. So if you get through the newest ADR:

Mercs: Ashlynn, Gastonne, Ossrum, and Magnus 2 - all are strong, versatile warcasters that combined with 40pts extra give you tremendous flexibility on such tournament. Even more on three list format, as you can take magnus2 + any other two out of three and you still will be fine.
Convergence: here is just the problem of limited options, but still they just can't get very weak ADR
Grymkins: quite same as convergence, limited amount of warlocks just make ADR strong for that faction.

Those three faction choices are far much better than any other in the list. While it might be refreshing idea, it just kinda break the balance (even if we say it exists) in another way. Quite too much for me with ongoing CIDs, recent theme changes, etc..

Additionally I agree with the others:
- it's hard to pack 3 lists, ADR (even two are not easy)
- it's hard to paint 3 lists ADR (especially for people that not play for so long)

Basically this:

Convergence: here is just the problem of limited options, but still they just can't get very weak ADR
Grymkins: quite same as convergence, limited amount of warlocks just make ADR strong for that faction.

and this:

Additionally I agree with the others:
- it's hard to pack 3 lists, ADR (even two are not easy)
- it's hard to paint 3 lists ADR (especially for people that not play for so long)

Balance, transport, painting.

Plus what Vitu$, Whydak and Encaitar said.

[Kruker]

I also do not like ADR that much. It is worth mentioning, that I am currently playing Convergence and the upcoming ADR would give me an edge over many other factions. Most arguments against ADR were already mentioned before, but for me the most important ones are the change in faction balance that is caused by the ADR. I do not like having an unfair advante over factions, who's ADR are much more restrictive than mine.

The transport and painting issues are secondary for me.

[Elros]

Personally I am pro ADR in a 2 list format. Certainly points provided by my predecessors are valid and there is and will be always a disproportion in the ADR-selective caster,

The only think i do not want right now is 3 list ADR becuase of logistical issues.

I'm definitly against ADR. Mostly because of the points writen above (Vitu$, Chomik).

ADR do not fulfill thier role of being support for less common choices of warcasters. Now they give too much flexibility and are making warcasters included in ADR to powerfull when they are not weak. Currently mercenaries are the best example.

I do think that the game is better balanced without them, especialy in 3 lists event.

The voting in the tournament thread may have a strategic element to it. If a player doesn't plan on using ADR anyway, he may want to vote against it to deny his opponents a potential advantage.

That said, I basically agree with others who do not find ADR a compelling option. It isn't enticing enough to encourage taking weaker warcasters while it feels like a cheap bonus for stronger ones, who would have been taken anyway.